V for Vatican

[hegemon]

V for Vendetta suggests that Great Britain is headed for a religious dictatorship, following the downfall of the United States. Could be. As Orwell predicted, the first step toward dictatorship is a state of perpetual war, a step the US has already taken, and which the UK has joined. Then we need a sharp reduction in the standard of living, which Bush's 9 trillion dollar debt, mostly money the US has borrowed from China to keep the economy afloat, is going to cause somewhere down the line. When people loose their houses and cars and health care, when the Wal-mart shelves are 80% empty and long lines form for the few consumer goods available, a turn toward religion is one possible outcome. We've already seen Pat Robinson blame the homosexuals for 9/11. People will be angry, the government will need a scapegoat to stay in power. It is a scarey thought.

[jdalton]

Haven't seen V yet, but I plan to soon.

Another factor which could very easily lead many nations towards religious extremism at the moment is the strange tendency for nations to emulate their rivals. I have a whole complex thread of arguements in my head to explain how the West was saved from communist revolution in the inter-war period by the plain fact that depression-era politicians went and stole all the communists' best ideas (legally enforced equality of gender and race, social assistance for poor people, accepting a unionized workforce...) thus stealing the communists' support amongst ordinary people. Canada's own pseudo-revolution in Winnipeg could never revive once its leaders were elected MPs. The whole cold war era seems rife with cross-copying of ideas. The CIA and KGB were really very similar entities, within their respective spheres of influence (which were not identical), and their foreign operations virtually indistinguishable. Communist governments ultimately proved incapable of stealing capitalism-democracy's best ideas.

Communism is no longer a physical or intellectual threat to anyone. But what better way to rally people in support of an endless and depressing war against those labelled, only with partial accuracy, as "Jihadists," than by launching a "Crusade?"

[admin]

I keep thinking of 1984, and the endless three cornered war whose only purpose was to keep the people from protesting. I defy anybody, at this point, to give a good reason for any of the wars the US has fought in the past fifty years. And yet, every president has his little war, and as soon as American's start dying, the president's popularity soars. Notice it was a hurricane, not this stupid war, that brought down Bush. But the next president probably won't be any better, now that the voting machines have been rigged by Dybold.

[jdalton]

I defy anybody, at this point, to give a good reason for any of the wars the US has fought in the past fifty years.

Some of their wars could be justified on the basis of international law. The first Gulf War began with Iraq's illegal attempt to annex Kuwait. Nobody in South Korea wanted particularly to be communist before the Korean War (though would as many Koreans have died if the U.S., or China, or both stayed out of the war? Probably not), and the Balkans were a big mess that somebody had to clean up. But were these the actual reasons the U.S. got involved in these wars? I'd say not. It was all domestic politics. It's always been domestic politics right back to the revolutionary war.

[admin]

I tend to take a science fiction view of the whole thing. Wheels within wheels. I've read too much Philip K. Dick.

I said "past fifty years" to exempt Korea, which I have mixed feelings about. The Balkens "war" was conducted the way I want a war to be conducted. No Americans died, the UN approved, and the bad guy died in prison. The Gulf War -- that's a little iffy. I've read that Bush Sr. send Saddam Hussain mixed messages, to lead him to believe he would get away with his invasion, and then pounced.

[jdalton]

I tend to take a science fiction view of the whole thing. Wheels within wheels.

Which is why the only pro-war arguements I was willing to put forward were legal ones. Intellectually and morally, wars are a very dodgy issue indeed. Even the most "just" of wars has plenty of very quantifiable negative consequences and only theoretical positive consequences. Testing the truth of those theoretical consequences- especially over the long term- would take some serious sci-fi technologies we don't have.

[hegemon]

I remember a story by L. Sprague deCamp who wrote that soldiers admire a general for two and only two things. First, for sharing the danger and hardships with them and second for being hung like a bull.

One thing sure, voters will vote for a leader to takes them to war over a leader who preserves the peace ten times out of ten.

[Jackle]

Much of the world is already pre-set to have all the issues in V for Vendetta become a reality.

All we really need is a huge socail disaster causeing mass panic and hysterica and a facist government ready to take control..

[jdalton]

Much of the world is already pre-set to have all the issues in V for Vendetta become a reality.

All we really need is a huge socail disaster causeing mass panic and hysterica and a facist government ready to take control..

We might not need even that. Check out this recent BBC article.

I've seen the movie now, by the way, it was good but the book is better.

[hegemon]

The US is like a rich family living on their credit cards, and China is holding our marker. In the news today, China is buying up oil futures, and the oil is going to go to the country that pays the most for it. All China has to do now is call in our debts, we won't be able to buy oil, China will, and, presto, we pay for our short term prosperity by becoming a third world country.

Naturally, nobody is going to blame that on the Republicans who actually caused it. So they will say God is punishing us for not heeding His message to hate fags, Jews, Mexicans, and all the other strange people who must be behind this sudden and totally unexpected disaster.

[temp]

The US is like a rich family living on their credit cards, and China is holding our marker. In the news today, China is buying up oil futures, and the oil is going to go to the country that pays the most for it. All China has to do now is call in our debts, we won't be able to buy oil, China will, and, presto, we pay for our short term prosperity by becoming a third world country.

Hey, but this is an SF discussion...so instead of investing in the old technology of the petrochemical industry, the US changes it's infrastructure to run on newer, top-of-the-line, high tech alternative and clean fuel sources such a "human power". Cars will now have a hole in the bottom and people will "run" to work in the morning. We will leverage the local flora and fauna to attend to our personal needs, such as a "dinosaur" lawn mower and a "bird" record player.

[jdalton]

The US is like a rich family living on their credit cards, and China is holding our marker. In the news today, China is buying up oil futures, and the oil is going to go to the country that pays the most for it. All China has to do now is call in our debts, we won't be able to buy oil, China will, and, presto, we pay for our short term prosperity by becoming a third world country.

Hey, but this is an SF discussion...so instead of investing in the old technology of the petrochemical industry, the US changes it's infrastructure to run on newer, top-of-the-line, high tech alternative and clean fuel sources such a "human power". Cars will now have a hole in the bottom and people will "run" to work in the morning. We will leverage the local flora and fauna to attend to our personal needs, such as a "dinosaur" lawn mower and a "bird" record player.

So either way, the US is back to the stone age, huh?

[admin]

Better the good stone age than the bad stone age. But to reach the good stone age, we have to start educating our children, and that seems to be out of the question, because if you have standards in education, some children will fail. The only way for no child to be left behind is to hobble the swift.