http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ F&SF Forum: Last 35 Posts en Fri, 03 Jul 2009 23:02:25 +0000 http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3836 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 22:57:12 +0000 GusG 3836@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Yes, it is best if the authors are paid, even from the student pool. My point was that FSF has the right to declare the terms. If potential authors do not like them, they can choose not to participate. My hope is that student authors are paid the same rate as other slush contributors. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3835 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 22:54:26 +0000 BrianJackson 3835@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>rreugen-</p> <p>You mind if I ask how many times you've been paid for prose by national publications per workshop attended? I'd say that the cost of 20 workshops should've at least made you your money back in professional writing gigs. If not, then you've only proven that you're a super-mark; and that workshops are in fact gimmicks.</p> <p>I will teach you some carny for free:</p> <p>A "shoot" is the truth. If I'm a straight shooter, I'm telling you the truth. A "work" is a lie or a gimmick. If I'm working you, I'm probably running some kind of con on you. Boxing is a shoot; while pro-wrestling is a complete work.</p> <p>Be wary of anything that flat-out calls itself a work. Like a "workshop". That's workers just rubbing your nose in your unabashed markdom. Watch out for that word, "work". I try and avoid work however; wherever I can.</p> <p>Brian Jackson</p> <p>PS.) Writing "I have went to about twenty" shows everyone that you should've gone to about 25. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3834 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 22:39:24 +0000 rreugen 3834@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Genocide, slavery, he he. But it all comes back to the greeks. Their teachings were roots to slavery, that german philosopher (there must be one), and pederasty. And workshops. Those happened when a philosopher had more than one young lover, I suppose.</p> <p>As for the modern workshops - especially those teaching some form of art: you say you never went to one. I have went to about twenty. They're fun. Really. You also can learn stuff, if you're one of those "minds seeking for knowledge," or you can just have fun. Online workshops? Not so much fun, but still plenty of learning, Again, if you're inclined to do so. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3833 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:15:42 +0000 BrianJackson 3833@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>rreugen-</p> <p>I've never, nor would I ever; join any workshop of any sort. I should be *teaching* workshops, after reading the average poster's messages compared against mine.</p> <p>As for your opinions on pederasty: It was a huge part of German culture at one point to gas Jews and burn them in fire pits. It was a huge part of American culture at one point to buy &#38; sell black people and use them as farm equipment. Being a huge part of a culture does not elevate a concept's ethical status.</p> <p>Brian Jackson </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3832 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:47:38 +0000 rreugen 3832@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>"I do not think F&#38;SF is obligated to pay writers from this workshop if their work is published. If it is printed, the feedback from Mr. Dozois and the publicity from having your name in the magazine should be ample compensation."</p> <p>I do think that F&#38;SF and ANY OTHER professional magazine MUST pay their contributors. </p> <p>Let's make a clear distinction. I think it's fine when someone pays (by his own will) for getting education. I really don't think it's fine when a writer pays to have his name in a magazine. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3831 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:42:07 +0000 rreugen 3831@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Brian, you make it sound as if the "knowledge seekers" are a bunch of sheep. In my experience, they are not. I only met a few of them, but none of those seemed to be naive about what they were doing. </p> <p>I suppose you had bad luck with the workshops you joined, if you have such a low opinion of them and of those who held them. But that doesn't mean all of them are "gimmicks." I'm afraid that it only means that you made bad choices.</p> <p>As for:<br /> "In ancient Greece, philosophers let young boys pay for their educations with sexual favors. Was pederasty ethical?"<br /> Yes, it was ethical. Actually, it was a huge part of their culture. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3830 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:35:20 +0000 BrianJackson 3830@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>GusG-</p> <p>You wrote: "I do not think F&#38;SF is obligated to pay writers from this workshop if their work is published. If it is printed, the feedback from Mr. Dozois and the publicity from having your name in the magazine should be ample compensation."</p> <p>When Tyson was released from prison, he was very angry. Amped up at a press conference for one of his next bouts, he yelled at his opponent, "I'll F**k you 'til you love me, punk!"</p> <p>I found this striking, and I can't help but think that it's a prison mentality. I understand that you could conceivably rape me until I achieve orgasm, yet is it not still a rape? </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3829 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:48:57 +0000 BrianJackson 3829@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>rreugen-</p> <p>Yes, I think workshops are gimmicks, and I think that the people who put them on know that they are gimmicks, and I find that reprehensible. I also think that college and the military are gimmicks. You may not agree, and I would fight and die for your right to be naïve about this.</p> <p>In ancient Greece, philosophers let young boys pay for their educations with sexual favors. Was pederasty ethical?</p> <p>Taking advantage of knowledge seekers is one of the worst things you can do. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3828 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:44:03 +0000 rreugen 3828@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Whatever has a cool subtitle today. I don't think it's anything wrong with mr. Scalzi's questions. He just says that some required information is missing, that is all.</p> <p>BJ :</p> <p>When I was a student there were lots of workshops available where students could practice their skills. (studying acting, by the way) Usually we found the announcements with dates, places and fees posted in the Uni main lobby, right at the beginning of the summer.<br /> Not one of those workshops offered jobs, only the opportunity to practice the craft and exchange experience. Some were taught by reputed professionals. Some were more helpful than others, but word got around.<br /> Do you think that there was something unethical about it? I don't.</p> <p>You go to a workshop to learn, and that is what you get. </p> <p>Basically, you pay a certain amount of money to get into an online class taught by Gardner Dozois. Apparently, he is a great story doctor, which in this conjecture is far more important than his editorial record. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3827 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:36:32 +0000 BrianJackson 3827@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>I have an ethical problem with college, also.</p> <p>Why pay Mr. Dozois to review your work when Mr. John Joseph Adams is already paid by Gordon to do it?</p> <p>I'm all for giving it away, but I'd hate to have it taken. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3826 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:35:38 +0000 GusG 3826@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Anyone who sees an ethical problem with this workshop has obviously never been to college. You don't get paid for your years as a trainee. You pay for them. And at the end, there is no guarantee of employment. The professionals who take their time and share their expertise are paid, and the students benefit from the classes are paid with the feedback they receive, which is far more valuable than most people realize. </p> <p>I would glady pay for the privilege of having Mr. Dozois review my work, and the chance to be published is a nice bonus. Those who are serious about becoming published authors understand the time and financial commitment it takes to get there. If you expect to be paid immediately, or to have some guarantee of being published and paid at the end, then you do not understand the process of becoming a professional of any kind.</p> <p>I do not think F&#38;SF is obligated to pay writers from this workshop if their work is published. If it is printed, the feedback from Mr. Dozois and the publicity from having your name in the magazine should be ample compensation. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3825 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:21:15 +0000 BrianJackson 3825@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Hypothetically, would it be ethical for Wal*Mart to charge unemployed people to take classes on how to run a register, stock &#38; straighten shelves and collect baskets out in the parking lot, hosted by former heavyweight clerks with years of experience; and in the end offer no assurance that they will be hired?</p> <p>It's sort of like making donkeys pay to follow a carrot at the end of a stick, isn't it? Justified by telling the ass that you're training it to walk a straighter line, to focus more intently on the orangeness of the vegetable.</p> <p>Sure, the slush-pile gang are the easiest marks to squeeze a buck out of, they already spend all their money on paper, ink and postage; all their free time daydreaming &#38; writing toward the modest hope of a nickel a word and an audience for their fantasies. But just because the smallest kid at school is the easiest to beat up, should I do it?</p> <p>I dunno about this type of thing. But I wish The Magazine and its staff the best in all ventures that help put F&#38;SF over and keep it great.</p> <p>Brian Jackson </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3824 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:19:30 +0000 BrianJackson 3824@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Double burp. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=317#post-3823 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:50:48 +0000 Gordon Van Gelder 3823@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Lois Tilton's IROSF review is in: <a href="http://irosf.com/q/zine/article/10566" rel="nofollow">http://irosf.com/q/zine/article/10566</a> </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3822 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:35:52 +0000 JohnWThiel 3822@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Company Sto policy in charging for writer development, I'd think. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3821 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:33:42 +0000 SFMurphy 3821@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>I see the standard actors are involved. Again. Nice that we have these self appointed arbiters of professional conduct (from the same people who have no qualms about posting rejection letters no less).</p> <p>I already blogged about it. Personally, I think it is just another case of people who have a vendetta against both Gardner and Gordon. The argument is pretty flimsy.</p> <p>Respects,<br /> Steven Francis Murphy </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3820 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:27:56 +0000 jason 3820@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>There's some bored people with way too much time on their hands trying to create controversy around this workshop. See Scalzi's post at <a href="http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/07/02/fsfs-writing-workshop/" rel="nofollow">http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/07/02/fsfs-writing-workshop/</a> for more (I should note he's partly debunking the controversy). Perhaps JJA or Gordon can clear up the issue of F&#38;SF paying for the workshopped stories Dozois picks. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=327#post-3819 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 05:21:07 +0000 Laird 3819@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>"What if your reply from F&#38;SF says only:</p> <p>"Peace to Ron G, Brucey B, Kid Capri<br /> Funkmaster Flex, Lovebug Starsky<br /> I'm blowin' up like you thought I would<br /> Call the crib, same number same hood<br /> It's all good"</p> <p>somewhat cryptically?</p> <p>Is it all a dream?"</p> <p>It means our friendly NSA operatives stuffed the wrong letter back into the wrong envelope. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=327#post-3818 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:11:44 +0000 BrianJackson 3818@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>What if your reply from F&#38;SF says only:</p> <p>"Peace to Ron G, Brucey B, Kid Capri<br /> Funkmaster Flex, Lovebug Starsky<br /> I'm blowin' up like you thought I would<br /> Call the crib, same number same hood<br /> It's all good"</p> <p>somewhat cryptically?</p> <p>Is it all a dream?</p> <p>Brian J. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3817 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 23:42:18 +0000 jason 3817@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Interesting. Very interesting.</p> <p>I look forward to hearing more on all this. Sounds like a fascinating workshop and, depending on the cost and structure, I may try to take part. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=327#post-3816 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 23:39:27 +0000 jason 3816@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>I have yet to be accepted by F&#38;SF--so please correct me if I'm wrong--but based on my previous rejections the step up from the JJA letters mentioned here is an "alas" letter from Gordon.</p> <p>Alas, I've received two of those. :-)</p> <p>On a more serious note, just keep writing and, when the story is ready, submitting it. Nothing is more important. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3815 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:58:48 +0000 SFMurphy 3815@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>I'll chime in with my ditto on Jack's post. Gardner's advice in his responses cut years off of my development as a writer. I'd scrounge up what money I had to participate. </p> <p>Respects,<br /> Steven Francis Murphy </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=327#post-3814 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:31:00 +0000 ccfinlay 3814@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>No problem. I'm a reader and fan of F&#38;SF first, and a contributor second. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3813 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:35:04 +0000 BrianJackson 3813@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Burp. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3812 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:24:49 +0000 rreugen 3812@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Except that this one will not be free, it seems, Sam.</p> <p>Looking forward to seeing it. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3811 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:00:35 +0000 JackSkillingstead 3811@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Having benefited a few times from Gardner's keen perceptions, I can without reservation recommend this workshop for anyone interested in improving their craft. I don't think there's ever been a more gifted story doctor. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3810 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 05:53:09 +0000 SamHidaka 3810@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Hmm . . . a writers' workshop sponsored by a fiction magazine . . . and the best stories passing through the workshop being selected for publication.</p> <p>The concept seems vaguely familiar to me.</p> <p>Anyway . . .</p> <p>I wish you the best, Gordon and Gardner. I hope it works out well.</p> <p>Sam </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=327#post-3809 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 04:33:27 +0000 steffenwolf 3809@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Agreed! </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=327#post-3808 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 03:24:28 +0000 GerryDaumiller 3808@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>I second that. Thanks Charles and Matt! </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=327#post-3807 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 03:02:47 +0000 BrianJackson 3807@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>ccfinlay-<br /> &#38;<br /> MattHughes-</p> <p>More of F&#38;SF's published authors should stop by this board and interact with readers &#38; aspiring writers the way you guys do. Not only are you both good storytellers, you're great posters. Thanks for taking some extra time. It's a very cool thing to do, and you're appreciated as much for the fantastic stories as for this down-to-earth communication with your audience. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=327#post-3806 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:30:04 +0000 MattHughes 3806@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>I remember holding my first novel (Fools Errant) in my hand, back in May 1994, and thinking it was pretty damn cool to be me. That same week, the publisher was bought by a conglomerate whose business plan had no room for my kind of book. So my novel went straight to the warehouse where it remained for years unmarketed. Indeed, some people who wrote to the publisher asking to buy a copy were told they couldn't have one because the publisher now only sold books to schools. Finally, five years later, my official First Fan, Mike Berro, bought up all the remaining copies, putting the book out of print, so that I could recover the rights and resell it.</p> <p>On the other hand, Gordon bought Mastermindless, the first story I ever sent him. So the literary gods give, and they take away. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=327#post-3805 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:19:08 +0000 ccfinlay 3805@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>BJ, I doubt anything could be as good as all that.</p> <p>SuperWhitePill, I can't give you an exact number any more. I'd been writing and submitting for over six years and probably had at least a hundred rejections for short stories, novels, etc. I only submitted to pro markets because that was my goal at the time, so I don't know how it would have gone for me if I'd kept moving down the markets to semi-pro or for-the-love. (Later, after I started selling short fiction, I was very happy to have a couple stories appear in some of the great semi-pro markets out there. But early on I was fairly single-minded about my goal.) </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=327#post-3804 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:06:32 +0000 BrianJackson 3804@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>SuperWhitePill-</p> <p>The right idea is just around the wrong corner. Publication is about having the literary chops to make that noodle of thought into salable material.</p> <p>For myself, this is a conundrum. Cash value is not what inspires me to write. It's difficult to create for monetary compensation when dollars don't figure into the process on my end. </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=317#post-3803 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:23:18 +0000 Gordon Van Gelder 3803@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Eleventh blog post: <a href="http://www.tomorrowsage.com/main/2009/07/review-the-magazine-of-fantasy-science-fiction/" rel="nofollow">http://www.tomorrowsage.com/main/2009/07/review-the-magazine-of-fantasy-science-fiction/</a> </p> http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/topic.php?id=328#post-3802 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:45:58 +0000 John Joseph Adams 3802@http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/ <p>Because there's been some discussion of the F&#38;SF workshop online, as a result of advanced copies being sent out to reviewers, I wanted to post the editorial from the Aug/Sep issue so that people can read it in full.</p> <p>Editorial</p> <p>Gordon Van Gelder </p> <p>There are several items of news to note with this issue.</p> <p> First, the process of switching to a bimonthly schedule caused a glitch in our subscription system. Nobody's subscription was affected, but the mailing labels for April/May issue had the wrong expiration dates on them. I think it's fixed now, but if you're in doubt about your subscription expiration date, check the label on your March 2009 issue or contact us.</p> <p> On a related note, we've had more reports of subscribers who have been deceived by subscription offers from rogue agents. These offers come through the mail and they're often designed to look like renewal notices, but they're not authorized by us. They usually have high rates and stringent terms (like charging a fee if you want to cancel a subscription). If you receive a renewal notice, check to see that its return address is P.O. Box 3447 in Hoboken, NJ. If it's not, the renewal notice is not authorized by us.</p> <p> For ebook readers, the news here is that we'll be available for sale through Sony very soon (I think we'll be available by the time you receive this issue, but I'm not sure). Check our <a href="http://www.FandSF.com" rel="nofollow">www.FandSF.com</a> Website for more info. (And if you still have <a href="http://www.fsfmag.com" rel="nofollow">www.fsfmag.com</a> as our site, please update your records. We sold that domain name to a fishing magazine earlier this year.)</p> <p> The last news item is the most exciting. I don't know why we never tried this before, but F&#38;SF is going to begin hosting a writing workshop.</p> <p> We're fortunate to have the great Gardner Dozois running the show. I'm sure most of our readers know Gardner already, but just in case, he's the author of dozens of short stories (his most recent F&#38;SF story is “Counterfactual,” which appeared in our June 2006 issue) and he edited Asimov's Science Fiction magazine from 1984 to 2004. He also has decades of experience with writing workshops and is widely considered one of the best story doctors in the field.</p> <p> All F&#38;SF readers should benefit from Gardner's workshop work, because he's going to have the option of selecting stories from the workshop for publication in F&#38;SF. We're currently planning to run Gardner Dozois selections three times a year. (Writers, fret not: I won't be reading the workshop stories myself, so you can still submit your stories to F&#38;SF regardless of what anyone in the workshop makes of the story.)</p> <p> The workshop will be administered by Lisa Rogers, a former editor for Gollancz and Little, Brown.</p> <p> Initially, the workshop will be available online only and the site will have a private message board to go with the critiquing.</p> <p> Until the workshop is firing on all cylinders, we're limiting the membership to 100 people. You can find the membership prices and other information at <a href="http://www.FandSFworkshop.com." rel="nofollow">www.FandSFworkshop.com.</a></p> <p> Frankly, I'm very excited about the prospects for this new project and I think all of our readers will benefit from it. </p>